the taliban will control that. so i don't -- you know, i think that's just another signal of our defeat in afghanistan. as far as the brotherhood goes, you know, we can talk to them all we want, but mrs. clinton laid out very clearly what she wanted from them in terms of their behavior politically and socially. and none of that is going to happen. they are also not going to forget that for 40 years or more we supported mubarak who spent most of his time carving up, persecuting, imprisoning and torturing the muslim brotherhood. so we have a long way to go before we get much traction with any of these groups but ignoring them is not the answer. >> so both of you are saying pragmatism rather than an absolute rule needs to govern. that we have no choice but to talk to the muslim brotherhood, who are participating in a democratic process. and in fact you've said the taliban similarly we don't have a whole lot of choice there either. so what has happened to the grand principle that terrorists are to be should knowed, iso